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ELO-System and ELO-Experiment - FAQ's

Postby TeratO » Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:27 pm

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FAQ's : Elo-System and Elo-Experiment

Because of many questions concerning the elo-system and the elo-experiment and because of many many misunderstandings i made this FAQ.


FAQ paused because ELO-tables are paused
Last edited by TeratO on Sat Nov 28, 2009 1:35 pm, edited 24 times in total.
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Postby [Rw]Ninety » Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:33 pm

I really hope this works out and Protonage can make it work for our leagues. Good luck with this.
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Postby IncaWarrior » Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:10 pm

I doesn't matter how much people know about it, pressure alacn to get loss reporting implemented and I'll add it to the site. Until he does that there's nothing that can be done.
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Postby TeratO » Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:40 am

Protonage visited the lobby yesterday. He was involved when we first started an attempt to test a logical system for detecting a loss without having the Popgame variables/booleans for a loss. That time it didnt work right and Protonage had his own work to do and he left pop. Yesterday he said, he might make a simple map (means almost empty) and then try to figure out the data changes in memory when a game is lost. With the empty map he think its possible to recognize mem changes better due to less datachanges in mem.

Another helpful variable to know know would also be the moment/time a game is really started after game is launched. Is it possible to figure this out?

Question is: Is there anyone at pop who is able to do similar stuff except alacn?
Waht is with kickman - isnt he into software stuff like making mapeditors, patches etc.?

There are 2 other approaches we thought about yesterday:

1. still the idea of a logical system based on all the varibales given by MM and the win reports of pop. I listed them in a different thread)

2. was the idea, if its possible to let a game run over kinda server or using something like a watchdog, wich is watching the current game connections between players of a game (together with player ips) and sniffing that connections for the cut of connection etc. Then - together with the game win reports, timestamp etc and a database it should be possible to figure out a loss logically also.

What i can do is making the logical stuff and making structograms, flowdiagrams , making the functions. but not the programming itself.

Who else here is interested and skilled to do something ?
In the end its sure needed to imply that stuff into MM. Is alacn the only one who could do that?
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Postby Little_Tun » Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:05 am

i think this will make it harder for me to get a game, people might refuse to play with me as i am a low rank but i do not play like a wildy. it is hard for me to get a game at the moment. please dont make it harder :(
=]
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Postby Spartan » Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:26 am

What is this elo thing ?
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Postby TeratO » Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:03 am

@Lordmaul:
it wont make it harder - it will make it easier to get a game.
if u do not play like a wildy (=low elo) u will have a higher Elo-Nr.
Thats the central Point: elo-system doesnt count points - it gives a number that shows ur actual player strength in relation to others.
Read the page behind the link! Especially the part: "The Elo-System in particularly regard to Populous - Establishing Elo at Populous will change the community in many ways!"
please: first read - then judge!

@[GoD]Spartan:
please read the page behind the link! Its made for answering ur question.
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Postby [Rw]BlackWolf » Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:29 am

[ix]trilix aka raz aka iDark is into that stuff
dispite his hacking attempts and such he knows alacn and makes a hobby out of programming. He made his own matchmaker a while back too (never got passed alpha stage)
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Postby ILuVBooBS » Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:36 am

wow terato is a bit pushy, as far as it looks it looks like you get better points on who you fight not how much you play, if the low guy fights terato he will get some decent points, if terato wins agains the low guy he wont really get poo :/ no more noob bashing in a small sence
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Postby TeratO » Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:41 am

exactly!
question is: What do u all think about this elo-league?
Maybe if we all support the elo.league idea more with positive postings, we could get alacn or others here to go into that stuff again! This would really be great!
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Postby [AsG]kyuubi » Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:51 am

this elo-league thing is a good idea.i think it'll b fun.i wonder who will be the first in this league? 8)
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Postby IncaWarrior » Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:42 am

1. There's no way to make comparisons given the variables the mm returns since it's only the name of the player and the type of game.

2. A watchdog server would use a lot of bandwidth and slow down games.

Better off modifying the mm
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Postby TeratO » Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:53 pm

@Inca
i have not much time now, so only short now, tomorrow more

to 1. there u are wrong (tomorrow more)
to 2. i thought/expected that, but: How much? Are there ways to minimize that?
Are there other ways? Which?

Inca why always so pessimistic? Everytime i speak bout the elo-league u immediately put the fist on the fly to kill it. And often no answer to questions like the one after the possibility of getting the game start time or the game duration time - is that something personal?
Why not better searching constructive ways together instead of pushing everything down?
ill send u something tomorrow.
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Postby [AsG]daroo » Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:49 am

i read carefully all about this league and i think its great idea, much more fair then current system, we can run second league and test how is it working, gl guys ;)
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Postby [TDM]MR-TaNk » Thu Nov 01, 2007 5:46 pm

Thats a good system. I think Starcraft use the same ladder.
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Postby [AsG]Storm » Sat Nov 03, 2007 5:32 am

is there no way to see if it says "level failed" or not?
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Postby TeratO » Sat Nov 03, 2007 9:34 am

good idea for a regularly finished game with a loss, searching the message string instead of a boolean! if theres not a boolean with a 1 for a loss or so, maybe there are other "indirect" indicators for a game loss.
i dont know how to check this - thats what alacn, ProtonageNet or someone other could figure out. Who else here can do such stuff?
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Postby IncaWarrior » Sat Nov 03, 2007 10:57 am

I'm not being pessimistic, I'm just saying that there's not much point in telling everyone that we should do it when only ALACN can do anything about it.

Also I'd like to hear how you can make comparisons between people with only knowing the winner of the game.
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Postby [AsG]Sub_Zero » Sat Nov 03, 2007 2:04 pm

Exactly, hence why it WON'T WORK
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Postby TeratO » Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:32 pm

thx for ur constructive comment sub ;)
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TeratO> Pooleiman. Have you ever made a constructive post?
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Pooleiman_DT> so you shopuld stop acting as if poohut was the world
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Postby [TDM]MR-TaNk » Sat Nov 10, 2007 3:24 pm

There is a mistake in the page http://paulpedia.com/ELO-leagues.html : You use F=400 not F=800 when you count expectation in example. Chess use 400 too. In that way maximum point you can get now is 18,241951585037507136026058369405. I mean 18.
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Postby [GoD]Captain » Sat Nov 10, 2007 5:34 pm

:???:
TeratO> but i saw one thing now: players who join GoD get a training how to glitch their shamans
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Postby TeratO » Sat Nov 10, 2007 7:37 pm

@MR-TaNk:
Yes, this is a mistake.
I used F=800 randomly choosed for an example. The Elo-calculating script that i got from an FIDE chessclub uses Point difference 735 to set expectation to 1 (cause the difference with higher Diff is only 3 or 6 didgits behind decimal point)
So at the sources ppl wrote 735 is F. But actually its 400. Elo suggested 800. F can be choosen free - its just a scaling/resolution factor.
One aim of the Elo-experiment here is to figure out if a different F is better for pop. Currently F is 400.
I think a higher F might be better cause its spreads elo min to max range more.

Thanks to MR-TaNk for having found this!

Good to know to have ppl who read stuff and check to find mistakes, errors and misunderstandings.
And we figured out some interesting things when we were checking 8) "Nehe'z szu:le's volt"

Btw: the original name of Arpad Elo in hungarian language is A'rpa'd Imre E'lo''
And it sounds much different there :)
Last edited by TeratO on Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Jonttu » Sun Nov 11, 2007 2:25 am

Hmm i just hope Alacn is up for this.. Its just that i never see him anywhere, i guess hes busy and all, but ive only seen him in old, old topics in these forums, i wonder how active he is with this stuff, is he busy with school or something? Im not sure but wasnt it primarily Alacn that made the whole mm or something??
No, i do hate Protoss. Especially Corsairs :D
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Postby TeratO » Sun Dec 09, 2007 3:06 pm

UPDATE: FAQ's to Elo-system and elo-experiment.

If you didnt find your question answered:
just post it here and i'll try to answer it as fast as possible.
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TeratO> Pooleiman. Have you ever made a constructive post?
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Pooleiman_DT> so you shopuld stop acting as if poohut was the world
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